Bach: Goldberg Variations

[Woody-Allen]

十二月份Simone Dinnerstein 在多伦多演奏了GV，可惜我当时正好out of town。有人去听了吗？

[Woody-Allen]

[Woody-Allen]

厚厚，原来楼上也是潜水多年啊！：）

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

好！也推荐hapsichord的GV. 现代钢琴因为声音sustain很好反而演奏中不方便加入巴洛克式的装饰，harpsichord就没有这样的限制，音乐可以演奏得听上去特别“复杂”和有味道，有可能更接近作曲家当时想象的声音。今天常听的GV都是钢琴版，偶尔听听harpsichord有耳目一新的享受。...

看看Angela Hewitt关于现代钢琴弹巴赫的好处：
http://www.chinasmile.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=493595

[Woody-Allen]

她在第一讲里很清楚地示范了在羽管键琴上无法分辨的两个voices在钢琴上能够同过音色的不通清晰地分辨除来。这当然算是钢琴的“好处”了。

这很象彩色摄影跟黑白摄影，各自有一套不同手法

彩色和黑白各有优点，钢琴与羽管键琴各有各的好处，一回事。

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

她的意思是说在harpsichord上无法象现代钢琴那样用控制dynamic的方法控制声部平衡, 并不是说多声部在harpsichord上无法分辨.

You think you can identify the two voices probably because you have heard it on modern piano before......

She did say very clearly and explicitly that "a huge advantage of modern piano..." and "...you simply cannot do that on harpsichord". For sure she is advocating for playing Bach on modern piano, especially on a Fazioli.

[Woody-Allen]

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

Now anyone who doubts a harpsichord would have to question himself why Bach would ever compose voices one can't make out from an instrument it's meant to be played

There are at least two reasons why J.S. Bach would do so:

(1) Most of the keyboard pieces that he composed were meant for organ, not for harpsichord.

(2) Pieces like GV and those of WTC are not for performance to an audience, but for his kids or students to practice and perfect the art of counterpoint.

The example Hewitt used, the two voices are on the same part of the keyboard, without tone-color or some other tricks, I really don't know how you could distinguish them. True, people like Domenico Scarlartti do write polyphonic music for harpsichord, but he did so by using other tricks, such as added notes or added chords or broken chords for one voice. These tricks are not necessary on modern piano.

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

Organs have no or little dynamic control either, therefore, not polyphony friendly, would you not say?

They have multiple stops

I'd have to pull my hair out trying to imagine one could practice and perfect an art when he could hardly hear himself. Don't tell me Beethoven did it please.....

If you as an audience can IMAGINE that you are following two indistinguishable voices on harpsichord, following the voices of their own playing would be trivial for them. It all has to do with anticipation.

Very simple, looking for them, as opposed to having a pianist shove a voice up in my face when it is a modern piano. When there is "noise" coming up one would know a new voice has kicked in. It's sort of searching for the composer's secrete, hard but fun.

Knowing that a new voice has entered is simple, of course. But when both voices are developed, they are tangled with each other, no way to distinguish unless you have extremely good short-term music memory so that you can anticipate what's next for the two voices at the same time. I don't know how many people who are not professional musicians can do that, I certainly cannot. I may get the beginning and the end of the two voices, sort of like hide and seek. Is it fun? Maybe. But it is far more distracting than hearing both voices at the same time without guessing.

[Woody-Allen]

比较一下，开头是前奏曲，赋格大约在2：00开始，到3：00时您能听出几个voices？

羽管键琴：


钢琴：

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

Stops will not help, will they? Harpsichords have them too. Hewitt would tell you "you simply cannot do that on an organ either" if you'd ever try tha...

Hewitt would never say that. If you think harpsichords have the same capability as organs in producing polyphonic music, then there is not much more I can say.

So it's not impossible to ID voices on a harpsichord, is it? That's the point I was trying to make.

All along, I had been talking about when two voices are on the same part of the keyboard and when two voices are tangled together (that was the example by Hewitt too).

Following the voices' development fully by simply listening, once? I've never even thought of having that gift.

Listening to Gulda's playing of C Major Fugue on modern piano that I posted above, you may find out that you are more talented than you have realized.

[Woody-Allen]

作者: 闲人.

我小时候听过啊是卡纳起的，女的，第一名字是啥忘了。弹的挺好，让一小孩记这么长时间。你们谁找的着，给贴一下。

啊是卡纳起是男的，你要找他的还是另外一个女的？图雷克？兰多斯卡亚？尼古拉叶娃？

[Woody-Allen]

作者: Woody-Allen

Hewitt would never say that. If you think harpsichords have the same capability as organs in producing polyphonic music, then there is not much more I...

Anyway, our discussion is getting too technical and my head starts to spin, perhaps we should discuss this over a glass of wine or a cup of cappuccino.

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

Oh, I'm sure she would. You apparently forgot what stops in an organ can do and cannot do, and in what way. Again, in the very canone Hewitt took exam...

I am not an organist nor a mechanic, but I did hear about mutation and mixtures in organ stops. Explain to me why they are not useful for changing tone colors.

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

They do make changes. Only that all notes within the octave get the same change.

I don't think this applies to mutation stops.

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

Mutation stops are not much different if not identical. We probably didn't have to come this far and break down an organ. The simple fact is, no stops...

A stop can be used for a rank of pipes or an individual pipe. Conversely, a rank of pipes can have multiple stops. I don't see why it has to be the case that each stop has to affect a whole octave.

[Woody-Allen]

作者: 闲人.

我要是连这个都记错了，就别在我们院混了。难道我把名字整个都记错了？肯定是女的，留了一个Sophie Marcau那样的刘海的头发，长发。

估计你说的是阿格丽奇

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

Stops and their controls are different things.....

They say one picture betters 1k words....so let's build an organ for Woody.



We have a sim...

Haha! Nice try, but you made it much more complicated then necessary. How many phone numbers that we need to dial? Numerous. How many number keys we use on a phone? Only 10.

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

How does your analogy work? The operating principles between an organ stop control and a telephone dialing are fundamentally different. An organ is to...

No need for PREPROGRAMED stops. At any time the organ player can pull more than one stops.