500,5000,20000的区别？

hugoo · Aug 31st, 2011, 18:26

http://www.drhifi.net.au/Hi-Fi/Digit...0Digital/1.htm

Interesting read..
This guy found no difference between a $500, a $5,000, and a $20,000 D/A convertor?
=================================================

Digital Test # 1

Cambridge DacMagic (Analogue Out) vs Esoteric D-07 (Analogue Out)

Cambridge DacMagic (Analogue Out) vs dCS Paganini (Analogue Out)

I have proven this time and time again. When connecting a Digital source to multiple DAC's simultaneously and then all to my VTL TL-7.5 Series II Line Stage in my Reference System 1 it provided for a very interesting comparison. The TL-7.5 Series II allows for each input to be level matched and all DAC's were connected via their respective Balanced outputs. Trimming the levels of each input to it's corresponding source is vitally important for a far and equal comparison to rule out any obvious volume differences that may otherwise affect the outcome.

This allowed me to switch inputs between a Cambridge Audio DacMagic approx $500.00, Esoteric D-07 approx $5,000.00 and a dCD Paganini approx $20,000.00 in real time and observe the differences. Sonically, there were none. If I did not set this test up myself I would seriously question the results.

The outcome was so shocking to me the first time I did this I went back and fourth, switching between the inputs to be faced with what could only be described as one of the Audio Industry's greatest hoaxes of all time.

I compare everything to a base level DAC that uses a standard DAC chipset. I use a Cambridge Audio DacMagic that costs only $599.00 as a modern reference level of an affordable product. Now you know why I also use it in my Reference system as opposed to something more exotic.

With the DacMagic you are not really paying for the performance of the DAC but the convenience it offers. USB, Balanced Outputs, sampling frequency between 32-96kHz and up-converting to 24 bit/192kHz.

Digital Test # 2

Marantz SA-11S2 (Analogue Out) vs Marantz SA-11S2 (Digital Out) > Cambridge DacMagic (Analogue Out)

Pioneer DV-410V (Analogue Out) vs Pioneer DV-410V (Digital Out) > Cambridge DacMagic (Analogue Out)

Marantz SA-11S2 (Analogue Out) vs Pioneer DV-410V (Analogue Out)

To take things a step further I also set-up a comparison test between the DacMagic and two Disc Players. The first being a Pioneer DV-410V DVD Player. It's list price was about $200.00 when new. The second was the Marantz SA-11S2 at around $5.5K. A test CD was played on the Pioneer and the Marantz and their analogue audio outputs run to my VTL TL-7.5 Series II Line Stage again through my Reference System 1. The digital output of the CD Players were also connected to the DacMagic and then that was connected to another input on the VTL TL-7.5 Series II Line Stage. Once again switching between the CD Players analogue outputs and DacMagic analogue outputs there was absolutely no sonic differences. Did this secondary revelation surprise me? No, not really. After the first comparison between the DacMagic and other DAC's on the market up to the value of $20K I was subconsciously prepared for anything that might seem like an unpopular and unusual result.

We now live in an age of very advanced DAC modules that have been perfected over decades of engineering development and through trickle down technology these can be picked up from around $500.00. Today DAC's in this price range sound fantastic. If your system sounds bad with a DacMagic, let me be the one to break it to you. Guess what, "It's not your DAC, it's the rest of it!" These simple comparison tests have proven to me that there is no difference in any of the DAC's under $20K that I have tested so far in terms of sonic performance. Probably not all that surprising knowing that they all use basically the same off the shelf DAC modules with extremely similar technology benchmarks in their respective output stages'. The exception being dCS who run their own proprietary Ring DAC circuit which is made up of around 40 chips, none of which are DAC chips. You can read all the other techno mumbo jumbo on their website rather than e-mailing me about it asking me why why why.

Basically, the biggest differences will be found in Amplifiers, Line Stages, Loudspeakers, Subwoofers, Turntables, Cartridges and Phono Stages. In other words; anything that is analogue in nature will make a considerable difference to the overall performance. Spend your money in these key areas. Digital components reveal the least differences per dollar spent. This fact is very clear and has been confirmed in numerous tests. At the end of the day it is just as easy for me to sell expensive digital products to a customer that I know will make little to no difference to their system then it is for me to recommend something that will really work and give maximum value for money spent.

Just like you can buy even the cheapest mobile phone today that has more than twice the features of the top models 5 years ago, DAC technology is the same. It is of course all computer based and just like the computing industry according to Moore's Law that dictates computing power will double approximately every two years. This trend has continued for more than half a century and is not expected to stop until at least 2015 or later.

In the digital world the most critical conversion is always performed in the recording studio from the analogue tracks to digital data storage desks not the conversion done in your listening room with your Digital to Analogue Converter. Do you honestly think that all CD's are mastered perfectly and every record label uses the same State -Of-The-Art equipment? Information that is lost at the source can never be recovered. The original A to D conversion of data is more than 1,000 times more important than the subsequent D to A conversion in terms of performance. By understand this process and how music is recorded and encoded form a Sound Engineers perspective, you might begin to see why you are very much wasting your time and money chasing the Holy Grail of Hi-End DAC's. We all have CD's in our collection that are simply unlistenable. Now you know why.

This is the main reason why vinyl even today in the age of SACD still sounds so much better than digital in so many ways. Obviously you are skipping one and sometimes two full conversion processes (depending on how the Record is cut) to start with. This is a huge advantage that I am yet to personally see digital technology recover from. Analogue by it's very nature is just getting too much of a head start in this race I must say for it to be a fair comparison. The original A to D conversion process is where the most damage is done to the sound source.

hugoo · Aug 31st, 2011, 20:47

引用:

作者: sgyyz

你已经用过4个DAC了。虽然你的没有过万，但你说有没有分别？

有分别，但分别真的不大。而且多是风格不同，素质好象都差不多。不过没认真比过，就是个大概的感觉。

hugoo · Aug 31st, 2011, 21:32

以前网上也看到过类似的说法，这个比较特别的是，这家伙是个dealer，dealer公开说这种言论是非常少见的，至少我是第一次见到这种，想想现在市场里DAC是个热门产品，他干嘛有钱不赚嘛

他用的那套reference system也不错，他还特别推崇黑胶，这种人好像不大可能用个垃圾录音来比较DAC，系统搭配他这种dealer也应该见得多了，不会不考虑。
不过还有可能这人就一根筋，听了一会儿就下结论

看看他用来比较的reference system 1：
http://www.drhifi.net.au/About.htm
素质应该还是可以的，估计这里能比上这个的还没有

B&W 800 speaker
VTL TL-7.5 Reference Series II Line Stage with separate Power Supply
VTL TL-7.5 Series II - Dual chassis design with separate Power Supply / Audio Circuit configuration
VTL MB-450 Signature Series II Monoblocks
Rega P9 Turntable with Rega RB1000 Tonearm
Rega P9 - Separate Power Supply Unit
Cambridge DacMagic & Wadia 170i.

hugoo · Aug 31st, 2011, 21:47

引用:

作者: 有门!

房间摆位等等都应考虑的，不能随便用个高素质的音响系统就算了事。

也只有这个可以解释了
还有可能就是这人是个木耳

我们也就是在这儿坐而论道，没人听过上万的DAC,
只希望哪天中彩票了，自己抱个2万的DAC回家比比。

hugoo · Aug 31st, 2011, 22:23

引用:

作者: sgyyz

同样的，他还没说整体设计／implementation，比如电源，电路，analog stage，等等。他不会以为就比一个DAC chip吧？

他说的是DAC产品的听感，你说的这些都包含在里面了吧。

要我选，还得看几系的宝马，如果只是3、5系的，我选烤肉，其实坐里面差别很小，烤肉省油，车内音响还可以自己升级。

hugoo · Aug 31st, 2011, 22:56

引用:

作者: sgyyz

这样的话，我情愿选Hyundai的。
他做的对比，我觉得是个人问题。他也只是靠自己的听觉来判断。

烤肉还是贵，hyundai性价比更高。

别人的听觉只能是个参考。
自己没听过的话，别人说啥都是浮云

我是觉得说一点区别没有太夸张，
我好奇的是，到底有多大区别

hugoo · Sep 1st, 2011, 11:01

引用:

作者: lighting

不是Rumor，宝马在多伦多的销量已超过Camry，Hyundai Dealer 里有朋友在做，有幸开过他在节假日带回来的一些试驾车，真的进步了太多，但对这品牌的认可度，还是在低位。
网上没有RMAA 的测试结果？要知道量化的DAC 性能区别，非RMAA 莫属！
看看这里 ("ht...

问题是耳朵能不能听出RMAA两位数百分比的区别

现在的问题是，有的人说差别巨大，有的人说没差别，这种情况下，实际情况到底怎样？如果差别真的是day and night，会有这么大争议吗？

只能说，性能上的差异，比不上价格上的差异是肯定的，别的嘛，都不确定，唯有自己攒钱买个2万的DAC回来听听比较才知道结果

Aug 31st, 2011, 18:26	#1
hugoo Senior Member 注册日期: Jan 2008 帖子: 1,974 积分:11 精华:4	500,5000,20000的区别？ http://www.drhifi.net.au/Hi-Fi/Digit...0Digital/1.htm Interesting read.. This guy found no difference between a $500, a $5,000, and a $20,000 D/A convertor? ================================================= Digital Test # 1 Cambridge DacMagic (Analogue Out) vs Esoteric D-07 (Analogue Out) Cambridge DacMagic (Analogue Out) vs dCS Paganini (Analogue Out) I have proven this time and time again. When connecting a Digital source to multiple DAC's simultaneously and then all to my VTL TL-7.5 Series II Line Stage in my Reference System 1 it provided for a very interesting comparison. The TL-7.5 Series II allows for each input to be level matched and all DAC's were connected via their respective Balanced outputs. Trimming the levels of each input to it's corresponding source is vitally important for a far and equal comparison to rule out any obvious volume differences that may otherwise affect the outcome. This allowed me to switch inputs between a Cambridge Audio DacMagic approx $500.00, Esoteric D-07 approx $5,000.00 and a dCD Paganini approx $20,000.00 in real time and observe the differences. Sonically, there were none. If I did not set this test up myself I would seriously question the results. The outcome was so shocking to me the first time I did this I went back and fourth, switching between the inputs to be faced with what could only be described as one of the Audio Industry's greatest hoaxes of all time. I compare everything to a base level DAC that uses a standard DAC chipset. I use a Cambridge Audio DacMagic that costs only $599.00 as a modern reference level of an affordable product. Now you know why I also use it in my Reference system as opposed to something more exotic. With the DacMagic you are not really paying for the performance of the DAC but the convenience it offers. USB, Balanced Outputs, sampling frequency between 32-96kHz and up-converting to 24 bit/192kHz. Digital Test # 2 Marantz SA-11S2 (Analogue Out) vs Marantz SA-11S2 (Digital Out) > Cambridge DacMagic (Analogue Out) Pioneer DV-410V (Analogue Out) vs Pioneer DV-410V (Digital Out) > Cambridge DacMagic (Analogue Out) Marantz SA-11S2 (Analogue Out) vs Pioneer DV-410V (Analogue Out) To take things a step further I also set-up a comparison test between the DacMagic and two Disc Players. The first being a Pioneer DV-410V DVD Player. It's list price was about $200.00 when new. The second was the Marantz SA-11S2 at around $5.5K. A test CD was played on the Pioneer and the Marantz and their analogue audio outputs run to my VTL TL-7.5 Series II Line Stage again through my Reference System 1. The digital output of the CD Players were also connected to the DacMagic and then that was connected to another input on the VTL TL-7.5 Series II Line Stage. Once again switching between the CD Players analogue outputs and DacMagic analogue outputs there was absolutely no sonic differences. Did this secondary revelation surprise me? No, not really. After the first comparison between the DacMagic and other DAC's on the market up to the value of $20K I was subconsciously prepared for anything that might seem like an unpopular and unusual result. We now live in an age of very advanced DAC modules that have been perfected over decades of engineering development and through trickle down technology these can be picked up from around $500.00. Today DAC's in this price range sound fantastic. If your system sounds bad with a DacMagic, let me be the one to break it to you. Guess what, "It's not your DAC, it's the rest of it!" These simple comparison tests have proven to me that there is no difference in any of the DAC's under $20K that I have tested so far in terms of sonic performance. Probably not all that surprising knowing that they all use basically the same off the shelf DAC modules with extremely similar technology benchmarks in their respective output stages'. The exception being dCS who run their own proprietary Ring DAC circuit which is made up of around 40 chips, none of which are DAC chips. You can read all the other techno mumbo jumbo on their website rather than e-mailing me about it asking me why why why. Basically, the biggest differences will be found in Amplifiers, Line Stages, Loudspeakers, Subwoofers, Turntables, Cartridges and Phono Stages. In other words; anything that is analogue in nature will make a considerable difference to the overall performance. Spend your money in these key areas. Digital components reveal the least differences per dollar spent. This fact is very clear and has been confirmed in numerous tests. At the end of the day it is just as easy for me to sell expensive digital products to a customer that I know will make little to no difference to their system then it is for me to recommend something that will really work and give maximum value for money spent. Just like you can buy even the cheapest mobile phone today that has more than twice the features of the top models 5 years ago, DAC technology is the same. It is of course all computer based and just like the computing industry according to Moore's Law that dictates computing power will double approximately every two years. This trend has continued for more than half a century and is not expected to stop until at least 2015 or later. In the digital world the most critical conversion is always performed in the recording studio from the analogue tracks to digital data storage desks not the conversion done in your listening room with your Digital to Analogue Converter. Do you honestly think that all CD's are mastered perfectly and every record label uses the same State -Of-The-Art equipment? Information that is lost at the source can never be recovered. The original A to D conversion of data is more than 1,000 times more important than the subsequent D to A conversion in terms of performance. By understand this process and how music is recorded and encoded form a Sound Engineers perspective, you might begin to see why you are very much wasting your time and money chasing the Holy Grail of Hi-End DAC's. We all have CD's in our collection that are simply unlistenable. Now you know why. This is the main reason why vinyl even today in the age of SACD still sounds so much better than digital in so many ways. Obviously you are skipping one and sometimes two full conversion processes (depending on how the Record is cut) to start with. This is a huge advantage that I am yet to personally see digital technology recover from. Analogue by it's very nature is just getting too much of a head start in this race I must say for it to be a fair comparison. The original A to D conversion process is where the most damage is done to the sound source.
	------------------------------- You Cannot Be Serious!

Aug 31st, 2011, 21:32	#3
hugoo Senior Member 注册日期: Jan 2008 帖子: 1,974 积分:11 精华:4 声望: 1172365	以前网上也看到过类似的说法，这个比较特别的是，这家伙是个dealer，dealer公开说这种言论是非常少见的，至少我是第一次见到这种，想想现在市场里DAC是个热门产品，他干嘛有钱不赚嘛他用的那套reference system也不错，他还特别推崇黑胶，这种人好像不大可能用个垃圾录音来比较DAC，系统搭配他这种dealer也应该见得多了，不会不考虑。不过还有可能这人就一根筋，听了一会儿就下结论看看他用来比较的reference system 1： http://www.drhifi.net.au/About.htm 素质应该还是可以的，估计这里能比上这个的还没有 B&W 800 speaker VTL TL-7.5 Reference Series II Line Stage with separate Power Supply VTL TL-7.5 Series II - Dual chassis design with separate Power Supply / Audio Circuit configuration VTL MB-450 Signature Series II Monoblocks Rega P9 Turntable with Rega RB1000 Tonearm Rega P9 - Separate Power Supply Unit Cambridge DacMagic & Wadia 170i.