Bach: Goldberg Variations - 第2页

闲人. · Jan 18th, 2011, 01:25

引用:

作者: Woody-Allen

比较一下，开头是前奏曲，赋格大约在2：00开始，到3：00时您能听出几个voices？

羽管键琴：
oV3Gva9Hx6w

钢琴：
0KQW2YnCUrE&feature=watch_response_rev...

后面那群维也纳童声的小男孩长的真俊啊

nattawa · Jan 18th, 2011, 09:51

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They have multiple stops

Stops will not help, will they? Harpsichords have them too. Hewitt would tell you "you simply cannot do that on an organ either" if you'd ever try that little canone on an organ and manage another person pushing or pulling stops for you while you have 2 voices on the right hand and a 3rd on the left (impossible scene, isn't it?). You'd find the stops change sound of both right hand voices at the same time as they happen to be proceeding within the same octave, and what was "indistinguishable" would remain as "indistinguishable".

I found it more straightforward to say Bach composed keyboard works because they could be heard, understood, and enjoyed on the instruments available at his time, despite lacking dynamic control, than saying any other ways around.

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Knowing that a new voice has entered is simple, of course. But when both voices are developed...

So it's not impossible to ID voices on a harpsichord, is it? That's the point I was trying to make.

Following the voices' development fully by simply listening, once? I've never even thought of having that gift. I believe most people can not either, even if it's a piano. That's probably why people come back to listen to same pieces again and again, and make discoveries every time. Perhaps this is the way music is meant to be enjoyed.

Modern pianos did not make impossibles possible. What they did to Bach's voices was hopping and waving, "hey, hey, I'm here", so that you don't have to try as hard to look for.

Woody-Allen · Jan 18th, 2011, 10:32

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作者: nattawa

Stops will not help, will they? Harpsichords have them too. Hewitt would tell you "you simply cannot do that on an organ either" if you'd ever try tha...

Hewitt would never say that. If you think harpsichords have the same capability as organs in producing polyphonic music, then there is not much more I can say.

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So it's not impossible to ID voices on a harpsichord, is it? That's the point I was trying to make.

All along, I had been talking about when two voices are on the same part of the keyboard and when two voices are tangled together (that was the example by Hewitt too).

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Following the voices' development fully by simply listening, once? I've never even thought of having that gift.

Listening to Gulda's playing of C Major Fugue on modern piano that I posted above, you may find out that you are more talented than you have realized.

Woody-Allen · Jan 18th, 2011, 11:05

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作者: 闲人.

我小时候听过啊是卡纳起的，女的，第一名字是啥忘了。弹的挺好，让一小孩记这么长时间。你们谁找的着，给贴一下。

啊是卡纳起是男的，你要找他的还是另外一个女的？图雷克？兰多斯卡亚？尼古拉叶娃？

Woody-Allen · Jan 18th, 2011, 14:03

引用:

作者: Woody-Allen

Hewitt would never say that. If you think harpsichords have the same capability as organs in producing polyphonic music, then there is not much more I...

Anyway, our discussion is getting too technical and my head starts to spin, perhaps we should discuss this over a glass of wine or a cup of cappuccino.

闲人. · Jan 18th, 2011, 14:58

引用:

作者: Woody-Allen

啊是卡纳起是男的，你要找他的还是另外一个女的？图雷克？兰多斯卡亚？尼古拉叶娃？

我要是连这个都记错了，就别在我们院混了。难道我把名字整个都记错了？肯定是女的，留了一个Sophie Marcau那样的刘海的头发，长发。

CaviarCavalier · Jan 18th, 2011, 21:03

引用:

作者: Woody-Allen

Anyway, our discussion is getting too technical and my head starts to spin, perhaps we should discuss this over a glass of wine or a cup of cappuccino...

Wine or coffee is not efficient enough to cool both of you down. It's the right time to make the best use of 五粮液.

nattawa · Jan 18th, 2011, 22:43

引用:

作者: Woody-Allen

Hewitt would never say that.

Oh, I'm sure she would. You apparently forgot what stops in an organ can do and cannot do, and in what way. Again, in the very canone Hewitt took example, stops would certainly not help set apart the voices were it on an organ, by the design of the mechanism of stops itself, i.e. stops only work by octave or group of octaves, they change sound of all notes within octaves that they are associated with by the same way.

I did not, and have no intention to say or imply a harpsichord is as good as an organ in handling polyphony music. Neither would I mind if one is much favored over another. What I was trying to point out is that you could have not brought up this multiple stop thing, as it serves you no support.

As of the fact that Bach composed a lot more for organ of all keyboards, why could not he have done so simply for the magnitude of the sound, let alone it would earn him the most money possible (and it did seem so)?

I bet even the instrument maintenance cost wasn't out of his own pocket.

Woody-Allen · Jan 18th, 2011, 23:22

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作者: nattawa

Oh, I'm sure she would. You apparently forgot what stops in an organ can do and cannot do, and in what way. Again, in the very canone Hewitt took exam...

I am not an organist nor a mechanic, but I did hear about mutation and mixtures in organ stops. Explain to me why they are not useful for changing tone colors.

nattawa · Jan 19th, 2011, 00:00

引用:

作者: Woody-Allen

I am not an organist nor a mechanic, but I did hear about mutation and mixtures in organ stops. Explain to me why they are not useful for changing ton...

They do make changes. Only that all notes within the octave get the same change.

Woody-Allen · Jan 19th, 2011, 12:24

引用:

作者: nattawa

They do make changes. Only that all notes within the octave get the same change.

I don't think this applies to mutation stops.

nattawa · Jan 19th, 2011, 23:15

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作者: Woody-Allen

I don't think this applies to mutation stops.

Mutation stops are not much different if not identical. We probably didn't have to come this far and break down an organ. The simple fact is, no stops in an organ are designed to work by voices.

Coloring voices with stops can be done only when voices are written/played on different octaves, as each octave has its own stops. For voices played by a single hand, like the piece Hewitt demonstrated, it is impossible, the two are too closely placed and sharing many notes within the same octave.

Woody-Allen · Jan 20th, 2011, 00:11

引用:

作者: nattawa

Mutation stops are not much different if not identical. We probably didn't have to come this far and break down an organ. The simple fact is, no stops...

A stop can be used for a rank of pipes or an individual pipe. Conversely, a rank of pipes can have multiple stops. I don't see why it has to be the case that each stop has to affect a whole octave.

Woody-Allen · Jan 20th, 2011, 09:56

引用:

作者: 闲人.

我要是连这个都记错了，就别在我们院混了。难道我把名字整个都记错了？肯定是女的，留了一个Sophie Marcau那样的刘海的头发，长发。

估计你说的是阿格丽奇

nattawa · Jan 20th, 2011, 21:22

引用:

作者: Woody-Allen

A stop can be used for a rank of pipes or an individual pipe. Conversely, a rank of pipes can have multiple stops. I don't see why it has to be the ca...

Stops and their controls are different things.....

They say one picture betters 1k words....so let's build an organ for Woody.

We have a simple one-key organ prototype with our organist, Woody Allen, at the keyboard. Despite the smallish range the organ has 10 ranks of pipes per key. The 4 smallest pipes are mutation pipes, they are connected together so they will sound or mute together as one pipe.

Woody wants to be able to change the sound quality, or timbre, from time to time when he hits the key. So we put in 7 control valves (called stops or “sliders” in the picture) at the bottom of the pipe system so that each of the pipes can be turned on or off at Woody’s will by operating the valve controls prior to hitting the key.

So how many control handles, or stop knobs as they call them, do we need to install for Woody to operate the valves? Seven, obviously, one for each valve. Wrong!

Woody is not interested in the valves themselves, what he wants is the timbre of sound. Then what is that? It’s nothing but certain combination of the on/off state of the 7 valves. The total number of combination is a huge figure.

We easily pick 20 combination of Woody’s choice and built a complicated linkage system and installed 20 knobs on a side panel (not shown in the picture). Each knob has the name of the sound timbre printed on it so that Woody can easily identify and select one or more to control and explore.

Woody is happy but soon he wants a real instrument. We then build him a 61-key organ, again with 10 pipes per key, but 61 pipes per rank this time. When it comes to the design of the stops we have a problem. There will be too many stop knobs if we are to offer independent timber controls to individual keys, insanely 1220 knobs!

Woody quickly realizes it would be impossible to set up the instrument’s sound timbre quickly with so many knobs, plus timbre control down to the key level is hardly desired musically. So we decide to keep the 20-knob design unchanged, except that we extend the valve controls, so that the control that goes to one pipe in the one-key organ now goes to all pipes in its rank. The result, changing the knob setting changes the sound timbre of the entire instrument.

Woody-Allen · Jan 20th, 2011, 22:29

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作者: nattawa

Stops and their controls are different things.....

They say one picture betters 1k words....so let's build an organ for Woody.

We have a sim...

Haha! Nice try, but you made it much more complicated then necessary. How many phone numbers that we need to dial? Numerous. How many number keys we use on a phone? Only 10.

nattawa · Jan 20th, 2011, 22:55

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作者: Woody-Allen

Haha! Nice try, but you made it much more complicated then necessary. How many phone numbers that we need to dial? Numerous. How many number keys we ...

How does your analogy work? The operating principles between an organ stop control and a telephone dialing are fundamentally different. An organ is to DECODE the pre-programmed control knobs, while a telephone is to ENCODE an address of device with numbers. Besides, why 10 numbers? Two would be enough, 0 and 1.

Woody-Allen · Jan 20th, 2011, 23:03

引用:

作者: nattawa

How does your analogy work? The operating principles between an organ stop control and a telephone dialing are fundamentally different. An organ is to...

No need for PREPROGRAMED stops. At any time the organ player can pull more than one stops.

nattawa · Jan 21st, 2011, 08:24

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作者: Woody-Allen

No need for PREPROGRAMED stops. At any time the organ player can pull more than one stops.

Ah! I see what you meant, number pad vs 1-tough speed-dial.

The 7 straight-control stops are among the 20 knobs in our organ, they are pre-program in its simplest form. The other 13 are speed-dial knob, so to speak. Are you sure Woody doesn't want speed-dial at all? We can easily remove them and save the panel space for future expansion.