Bach: Goldberg Variations

[annarosa]

[Sunnie]

不得不想起古尔德

[annarosa]

作者: Sunnie

不得不想起古尔德

[Woody-Allen]

十二月份Simone Dinnerstein 在多伦多演奏了GV，可惜我当时正好out of town。有人去听了吗？

[Woody-Allen]

[nattawa]

好！也推荐hapsichord的GV. 现代钢琴因为声音sustain很好反而演奏中不方便加入巴洛克式的装饰，harpsichord就没有这样的限制，音乐可以演奏得听上去特别“复杂”和有味道，有可能更接近作曲家当时想象的声音。今天常听的GV都是钢琴版，偶尔听听harpsichord有耳目一新的享受。

[Woody-Allen]

厚厚，原来楼上也是潜水多年啊！：）

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

好！也推荐hapsichord的GV. 现代钢琴因为声音sustain很好反而演奏中不方便加入巴洛克式的装饰，harpsichord就没有这样的限制，音乐可以演奏得听上去特别“复杂”和有味道，有可能更接近作曲家当时想象的声音。今天常听的GV都是钢琴版，偶尔听听harpsichord有耳目一新的享受。...

看看Angela Hewitt关于现代钢琴弹巴赫的好处：
http://www.chinasmile.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=493595

[nattawa]

作者: Woody-Allen

看看Angela Hewitt关于现代钢琴弹巴赫的好处：
http://www.chinasmile.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=493595 ("http://www.chinasmile.net/forums/showthread.php?t=493595&quot...

我看她不是在讲“好处”，而是在讲不能把钢琴当harpsichord用，和如何在演奏巴赫时利用现代钢琴的优势。这很象彩色摄影跟黑白摄影，各自有一套不同手法。

[Woody-Allen]

她在第一讲里很清楚地示范了在羽管键琴上无法分辨的两个voices在钢琴上能够同过音色的不通清晰地分辨除来。这当然算是钢琴的“好处”了。

这很象彩色摄影跟黑白摄影，各自有一套不同手法

彩色和黑白各有优点，钢琴与羽管键琴各有各的好处，一回事。

[annarosa]

中国人对于羽管键琴的认识，大多从理论上听来。因此我希望自己的亲身体会能够有不一样的交流。我会比较羽管键琴和钢琴的区别，然后着重我在羽管键琴上所得到对于钢琴的启发。

从第一次看《莫扎特传》（Amadeus），我就很想很想弹它了。很想知道它和钢琴有什么不同。去了美国，有幸接触harpsichord，而教授Phebe相当的和蔼可亲，她和学校都有一套harpsichord的收藏。在学校，我竟然通过harpsichordist的身份被了解的，而不是pianist...连自己都觉得不可思议。

第一次触碰到harpsichord的感觉很奇妙，就像是第一次不小心碰到你心仪很久的人。由于harpsichord的发声原理和钢琴不一样。钢琴用的是小锤子敲打琴弦，harpsichord用的是羽毛管（现在有的是塑料）挑拨琴弦。巴洛克时期开始有钢琴出现，但显然不是巴赫所爱，当时钢琴制作技术还未成熟，羽管键琴仍然很受欢迎。

触键：弹钢琴的时候我们总是强调手臂带动，手指要“到底”。harpsichord不一样。很轻轻把手指落下去是没有声音的，直至薄片挑拨到琴弦的时候，才会“噗”地发出声音。过了这个点以后，还有一定的空位，这个在harpsichord上称为“dead space”。这部分，就是弹到底也不会改变声音的。相反，在钢琴上，如果不把琴键弹到底，就有所谓“飘”的感觉，就像人说话有气无力。有趣的是，和羽管键琴，钢琴相似的clavichord，在dead space震动琴弦，就能改变声响，有点像古筝的揉弦。......诸位不知道我说什么也可以的，我只是想强调，虽然同时键盘乐器，但是它们很不同。所谓不要以为掌握了一种，自然就会另外一种。在演奏的时候，要尊重乐器本身的性格。即便每台钢琴也有不同的性格。

Harpsichord的触键讲求灵活。抬指不需要夸张，否则浪费力气。手臂运用到的力量很少很少，几乎没有。由于harpsichord缺乏强弱变化，更加没有踏板，因此所有的小花招都要用手指微妙的变化来产生。

指法：其实指法可以归为触键的其中一项。之前我是远远小看了指法在harpsichord里面的重要性。同样的曲子，在harpsichord上的指法和在钢琴的指法可以是完全不一样的。例如弹音阶，我们习惯了到3指转一次，4指再转一次。而在harpsichord里面，指法却可以很灵活，例如可以用“123-抬手-1234”而不是用转指。或是“12-12-12”甚至“23-23-23”两根手指交替进行的指法也是相当流行的。“留指”在巴洛克音乐里面很重要，而“转指”（初学者：靠手腕转动换指而无需抬手）在harpsichord指法里面并不流行，相反，它们用的是抬手。注意，这里的“抬手”只是手离开键盘小范围的移动，而不是像钢琴一样，用手臂带动挥舞。总而言之，在harpsichord上面不应该出现像李斯特那样的作风。....我只是想强调，同一首曲子，可以尝试不同的指法和触键。每个人手型不同，对音乐的理解也不同。同一句话，我们用逗号的地方也会不一样。所以，不要害怕尝试各种指法。弹harpsichord的人也许都不喜欢标满了指法和连线的钢琴谱（我的教授们多次对我用的谱提出抗议），使他们眼花缭乱的同时还会破坏他们在harpsichord上对音乐的理解。因此他们都会寻找最原始，不含现代诸多标记的琴谱。

轻重：不是说harpsichord没有强弱变化（dynamic）的吗？几乎是这样的。但是对于有经验的羽管键琴师，他们还是有些办法的。例如他们会在需要强调的音前面加一个小小的pause，就好像讲话一样，在你需要强调之前，来一个小停顿，那么，听众的吸引力就会被吸引到了那个停顿以后的内容了。还有，通过减少声部或者增加声部，也可以达到近乎改变强弱的效果。对于一个harpsichordist,要懂得即席创造这样的效果，意味着你要懂得和声之间的关系。在此对钢琴的启发？就是不要照谱弹谱。不要吝啬于尝试各种流传下来的版本。对于华彩乐段，更加要发挥想象力和即兴能力。关于这个问题，我想以后讨论continuo bass的时候再加叙述。

其他有趣的：与harpsichord相似的，属于同一个键盘家族，在巴洛克时候也很流行的时候，还有clavichord,virginal,spinet.我没有亲手弹过这些，因此不加细述。还有人把管风琴和羽管键琴，钢琴混淆的 -- 这在中国并不少见，因为实在我们接触这些乐器的机会太少了。我在此添加了URL联接，有兴趣的各位可以做进一步了解。之所以选英文版，因为比较详尽。对于不想看英文的朋友，看看美丽的照片也是有帮助的。

我想要一台羽管键琴将是未来的一件事（可见学乐器是多么的昂贵！！！）。乐器贵的本身，还要有足够的空间来存放它。羽管键琴通常都有很美丽的手绘油画。我的教授们建议我现在就开始排队定购，因为这个过程可能需要9年左后。然后你可以和harpsichord maker协商要什么样的款式，什么样的油画，什么样的音色，多大，有多少排...等等...

[nattawa]

作者: Woody-Allen

她在第一讲里很清楚地示范了在羽管键琴上无法分辨的两个voices在钢琴上能够同过音色的不通清晰地分辨除来。这当然算是钢琴的“好处”了。

她的意思是说在harpsichord上无法象现代钢琴那样用控制dynamic的方法控制声部平衡, 并不是说多声部在harpsichord上无法分辨.

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

她的意思是说在harpsichord上无法象现代钢琴那样用控制dynamic的方法控制声部平衡, 并不是说多声部在harpsichord上无法分辨.

You think you can identify the two voices probably because you have heard it on modern piano before......

She did say very clearly and explicitly that "a huge advantage of modern piano..." and "...you simply cannot do that on harpsichord". For sure she is advocating for playing Bach on modern piano, especially on a Fazioli.

[Woody-Allen]

[nattawa]

作者: Woody-Allen

You think you can identify the two voices probably because you have heard it on modern piano before......

She did say very clearly and explicitly t...

I didn't think I could. I actually can. So can you and anyone else.

What Hewitt was talking about by saying "you simply cannot do that" was exactly referring to the dynamic control, or lack of it on the harpsichord part. Never did she say anything about or imply that harpsichord being unable to bring out polyphony textures in that video clip. She would never do so because it is simply not the truth, no matter how much she favors her Fazioli. Now anyone who doubts a harpsichord would have to question himself why Bach would ever compose voices one can't make out from an instrument it's meant to be played on, and this can be a tough one to answer.

It is a fact dynamic control on a modern piano opened vast possibilities for music interpretation, even for works not composed with dynamics in mind, this however never by any sense makes a harpsichord a wrong instrument for polyphony compositions.

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

Now anyone who doubts a harpsichord would have to question himself why Bach would ever compose voices one can't make out from an instrument it's meant to be played

There are at least two reasons why J.S. Bach would do so:

(1) Most of the keyboard pieces that he composed were meant for organ, not for harpsichord.

(2) Pieces like GV and those of WTC are not for performance to an audience, but for his kids or students to practice and perfect the art of counterpoint.

The example Hewitt used, the two voices are on the same part of the keyboard, without tone-color or some other tricks, I really don't know how you could distinguish them. True, people like Domenico Scarlartti do write polyphonic music for harpsichord, but he did so by using other tricks, such as added notes or added chords or broken chords for one voice. These tricks are not necessary on modern piano.

[nattawa]

作者: Woody-Allen

(1) Most of the keyboard pieces that he composed were meant for organ, not for harpsichor...

Organs have no or little dynamic control either, therefore, not polyphony friendly, would you not say?

作者: Woody-Allen

(2) Pieces like GV and those of WTC are not for performance to an audience, but for his kids or students to practice and perfect the art of counterpoint.

I'd have to pull my hair out trying to imagine one could practice and perfect an art when he could hardly hear himself. Don't tell me Beethoven did it please.....

作者: Woody-Allen

....... how you could distinguish them.

Very simple, looking for them, as opposed to having a pianist shove a voice up in my face when it is a modern piano. When there is "noise" coming up one would know a new voice has kicked in. It's sort of searching for the composer's secrete, hard but fun.

[Woody-Allen]

作者: nattawa

Organs have no or little dynamic control either, therefore, not polyphony friendly, would you not say?

They have multiple stops

I'd have to pull my hair out trying to imagine one could practice and perfect an art when he could hardly hear himself. Don't tell me Beethoven did it please.....

If you as an audience can IMAGINE that you are following two indistinguishable voices on harpsichord, following the voices of their own playing would be trivial for them. It all has to do with anticipation.

Very simple, looking for them, as opposed to having a pianist shove a voice up in my face when it is a modern piano. When there is "noise" coming up one would know a new voice has kicked in. It's sort of searching for the composer's secrete, hard but fun.

Knowing that a new voice has entered is simple, of course. But when both voices are developed, they are tangled with each other, no way to distinguish unless you have extremely good short-term music memory so that you can anticipate what's next for the two voices at the same time. I don't know how many people who are not professional musicians can do that, I certainly cannot. I may get the beginning and the end of the two voices, sort of like hide and seek. Is it fun? Maybe. But it is far more distracting than hearing both voices at the same time without guessing.

[Woody-Allen]

比较一下，开头是前奏曲，赋格大约在2：00开始，到3：00时您能听出几个voices？

羽管键琴：


钢琴：

[闲人.]

我小时候听过啊是卡纳起的，女的，第一名字是啥忘了。弹的挺好，让一小孩记这么长时间。你们谁找的着，给贴一下。