帮人问个问题：有闲钱是买RRSP合适，还是还Mortgage合适？

[wanker]

Good math ! but the 21.9k is before tax, 18.6K is after tax !
Actually, I think the best way is to spend the money for vacation. not RRSP or Mortgage.

作者: ca416371

Tiger04: Your calculation makes no sense to me. Let me show you something.

OK, now suppose she is getting some RRSP first, say 10k/year, that means she is making 10k/18%=55k/year, and here in Ontario, her Marginal
Tax Rate would be 31.15%, not 22%. For simpilicity, let's make it 30%. So the 1st year she is saving: 10k*30%=3k. Let's just look at this 10k.

The key benefit of RRSP is that ALL investment gains within are tax sheltered. Now let's assume she is making only 4% gains there, which is VERY SAFE to get, with a risk which is next to none. In 20 years, the 10k money she has there would be: 21.9k.

Now let's see what happens if she does not buy RRSP, instead used this money to pay back mortgage. 1st she is taxed 30%, which means she has only 7k to pay back the mortgage. With 7k @ 5%, 20 years later it would have been: 18.57k or 18.6k. She could have taken 21.9k out of her RRSP to pay off the mortgage and save herself 3.3k on this 10k! Make sense?

[Tiger04]

作者: ca416371

Tiger04: Your calculation makes no sense to me. Let me show you something. .........

You know why you always make no sense, "Seems either your English is not good enough to catch my meaning at all, or you are just trying to mislead others."(your words )

Look what you have done:
1.When I try to say prime living house is tax free for selling, you talk about property house is taxable.

2.When I try to say you can always buy RRSP to catch the tax benifit, you talked about you could make money out ot RRSP without tax

3. When I try to explain someone why RRSP is one time only tax benifit and mortage interest rate is always on till you paid of, you talked about another calculation.

4. I just use someone's data to explain things to make it simple, so I pick up the 22% and add a word "whatever" to show other people the number will be changed for different people, and you still catch 22% as a point.

5. In my calculation, I said "of course if you do not buy RRSP, you might not have $30000 in hand, because you have to pay tax", but you still make no sense for that, and did another calculation.

boy, you need build up your sense from now!

I will in another post to correct your calculation.

[Tiger04]

作者: ca416371

Tiger04: Your calculation makes no sense to me. Let me show you something.

OK, now suppose she is getting some RRSP first, say 10k/year, that means she is making 10k/18%=55k/year, and here in Ontario, her Marginal
Tax Rate would be 31.15%, not 22%. For simpilicity, let's make it 30%. So the 1st year she is saving: 10k*30%=3k. Let's just look at this 10k.

The key benefit of RRSP is that ALL investment gains within are tax sheltered. Now let's assume she is making only 4% gains there, which is VERY SAFE to get, with a risk which is next to none. In 20 years, the 10k money she has there would be: 21.9k.

Now let's see what happens if she does not buy RRSP, instead used this money to pay back mortgage. 1st she is taxed 30%, which means she has only 7k to pay back the mortgage. With 7k @ 5%, 20 years later it would have been: 18.57k or 18.6k. She could have taken 21.9k out of her RRSP to pay off the mortgage and save herself 3.3k on this 10k! Make sense?

For simplify the problem, I will use all your data, do not say somthing to change the data again

1.when you "taken 21.9k out of her RRSP to pay off the mortgage ", how come you do not need to pay single tax?

2. let's do calculation step by step.
1)when you buy $10000 RRSP to creat 21.9k in 20 years, you used $10000 RRSP room, did you?
2)so for the person who use only 7k to pay mortgage instead of buying RRSP,saved $10000 RRSP room, right?
3)then after 20 years, he/she could buy this additional $10000 RRSP and save $3000 right away, right?
4)18.6k+$3000=21.6k
5) then the things need to be compared are: 21.6k(pay mortage then buy RRSP) with 21.9k-tax (buy RRSP then pay mortage).

even you can find a way to make 21.9k out of RRSP without paying any tax, the two things is still almost equal.

this time make sense to you?

[ca416371]

Tiger04: OK, you are using my numbers, that is cool. We are finding something in common at least here.

Remember, in the RRSP case, I am using a 4% annual return, which is VERY conservertive, and which is lower than the mortgage interest rate, 5%. The fact for nowadays, however, is that floating mortgage interest rate should be arround 4%, and the return in RRSP if you hold for 20 years as AT LEAST 6%. The reason I chose the numbers reversed as 5% vs. 4% is just to show you that even in such a situation, you can get more returns from RRSP than returning mortgage fast. Though I chose it, it is not a fair case. Make sense?

As of how to get money out of RRSP is a secret I don't want to discuss here. You can do some research and try to figure it out yourself. Good luck.

[Tiger04]

作者: ca416371

Tiger04: OK, you are using my numbers, that is cool. We are finding something in common at least here.

Remember, in the RRSP case, I am using a 4% annual return, which is VERY conservertive, and which is lower than the mortgage interest rate, 5%. The fact for nowadays, however, is that floating mortgage interest rate should be arround 4%, and the return in RRSP if you hold for 20 years as AT LEAST 6%. The reason I chose the numbers reversed as 5% vs. 4% is just to show you that even in such a situation, you can get more returns from RRSP than returning mortgage fast. Though I chose it, it is not a fair case. Make sense?

As of how to get money out of RRSP is a secret I don't want to discuss here. You can do some research and try to figure it out yourself. Good luck.

I know you are going to argue with the number

Mortgage rate of 5% is for only 4 years terms right now, which is in the historically low. and even with the lowest rate, if you try to fix 20 years term, it should be over 6%. and what if it jump to 16%? (this rate happened before)

that is why I said it is not smiple answer

[countryside]

作者: ca416371

Tiger04: OK, you are using my numbers, that is cool. We are finding something in common at least here.

Remember, in the RRSP case, I am using a 4% annual return, which is VERY conservertive, and which is lower than the mortgage interest rate, 5%. The fact for nowadays, however, is that floating mortgage interest rate should be arround 4%, and the return in RRSP if you hold for 20 years as AT LEAST 6%. The reason I chose the numbers reversed as 5% vs. 4% is just to show you that even in such a situation, you can get more returns from RRSP than returning mortgage fast. Though I chose it, it is not a fair case. Make sense?

As of how to get money out of RRSP is a secret I don't want to discuss here. You can do some research and try to figure it out yourself. Good luck.

85% rrsp dealers don't buy rrsp
and all of them say buying rrsp is one of the best investment.

assume that inflation rate at 5% every year, rrsp average profit 7%(not so sure, maybe below 0). now invest for 16 years in house and rrsp , we will get different result.


Buying a $200000 house now(get this all from bank to simplify the process, assume mortagage rate at 5.5%) ,
you pay 1561.95$ every month.After 16 years , the value will be about $481335$ at least (no tax). you pay property tax + your house's location become better + you enjoy living in your own house that for sure will be 50% cheaper than rent a house at least.

Investting 1561.95$(assume management fees =0, annual return rate=7%) in rrsp every month for 16 years
you maybe have 644045$ before tax(that has included rrsp tax return). I don't know how much you need to pay for the rrsp management fees, maybe 1.5-2% then the value will be dropped down to 553845$ before tax.
in this 16 years you have to pay rent every year .You can't get much benefit from the government after you retire because of your huge saving in rrsp

which result is better ? I have no idea but maybe the 85% rrsp agents make the right choice

The above caculation is not very acurate, but good enough for this discussion.

[ca416371]

countryside:

You may have some misunderstanding on what the topic is here. The topic is if we should pay-off the mortgage in a faster rate while ignoring other financial tools like using RRSP to reduce tax, or we should have a better balance between paying off mortgage in a more reasonable time frame while enjoy getting back some of the tax payed to the government.

You mentioned that 85% dealers of RRSP don't buy RRSP. May I know where is this data coming from?

[游夫]

作者: bank

安省税率：收入３万２－６万４之间是联邦税２２％，省税９。０５％，一共３１。０５％。２２％是哪个省的？我要往那搬。

就是安省的. 3万2以下的联邦税是16%左右,省税是6%左右.你的收入高一个档次,所以更要买RRSP了.

[Standby]

ca416371 got the topic right. The topic is not about making a decision between investing your savings in real estate and RRSP. She already owns a house.

I've already sent your posts to my friend, who is now in China. She said she learned a lot from reading them. Me, too. We really appreciate your help.

It seems as if answering this question is really not as easy as we expected. Actually paying off your mortgage in a shorter period of time is not MUCH better than buying RRSP and vice versa, especially for those who know almost nothing about investing and financing. But if you can get ca416371's good strategy, that will be another story. Or just like 老杨, 游夫, bank, citrine, and ca416371 suggested that "should have a better balance between paying off mortgage in a more reasonable time frame while enjoy getting back some of the tax payed to the government" , which means buying RRSP in full first, then use the rest of the money and the tax refund to pay the mortgage. May I conclude that?

作者: ca416371

countryside:

You may have some misunderstanding on what the topic is here. The topic is if we should pay-off the mortgage in a faster rate while ignoring other financial tools like using RRSP to reduce tax, or we should have a better balance between paying off mortgage in a more reasonable time frame while enjoy getting back some of the tax payed to the government.

You mentioned that 85% dealers of RRSP don't buy RRSP. May I know where is this data coming from?

[Rebica Koops]

This is the best answer. clear and right.

作者: citrine

这个情况很有优势嘛。
首先看他先生是否在报税时申报国内的收入，就算报估计额度也很少吧？那先生和孩子就算做她的dependants可以降低一部分应缴税收入；然后再算买多少RRSP可以降低一个tax bracket。估摸着就买这个数字吧。买完后再有余钱+RRSP退税后的钱都还mortgage。最后，RRSP应该买在先生名下。如果先生一分钱收入都不报，或者很低，他可以第二年取出来，就算当作他当年收入计算，只要总收入在8000以下（包括取出RRSP的部分）他就不用上税。这样这笔钱又可以还进mortgage里去。
我毕竟不是搞经济的，还请专家们斧正。

[fushao]

作者: 多伦多市政府

就忘了RRSP每年7-15%利滚利的增长了,

So far, I get only 6.3% earning from last year's RRSP investment.
Anybody get more?
And where you invested?
Let's share some useful ideals?

[couple]

http://www.chinasmile.net/forums/sho...d=1#post299001

CWO

[潜水艇]

贷款买房是今天使用明天的钱。可是有一种人寿保险可以让你生前使用死后的钱。

假设你今年47岁，不吸烟，买100万的人寿保险（兼有投资功能）。

1。投资6万，每年保费从投资收益中扣除。本金和其余收益在帐户中免税滚动增长。保险人死亡后，受益人可以免税获得（不同于RRSP，由于保险人死亡而获得的人寿保险同彩票中奖一样是免税的）。投资及收益部分可以按90％的比例借出使用（由于不是提出，因此不必纳税）。
2。第二年借出6万，存入投资帐户。此时投资额为12万，负债为6万。
3。第三年借出6万，存入投资帐户。此时投资额为18万，负债为12万。
4。此时投资帐户以18万为基数增长，负债的12万需要付投资利息。
5。基金年假定增长为8％
6。投资利息为10％，但其中8％会返还到投资帐户中。实际利息为2％
7。由于投资部分的增长（18万×8％＝14400）大于负债部分利息的支出（12万×2％＝2400），因此基金处于累积增长。
8。由于投资利息是免税的，每年可以得到1.2万的免税额(12×10％）。设想一下：你当年需要买1.2万的RRSP才可以获得的免税额，却因为你有12万的债务而获得！
9。RRSP的节余在死亡后须像其他遗产（房屋，存款）一样一次性提出给予继承人，则继承人当年的收入将会很高，大把的税款又被政府收走。
10。此种人寿保险由于保险人死亡而兑付时，扣除负债后，可以免税全额由受益人获得。
11。在基金增长到一定规模时，假设再借出10万元偿还房屋贷款，将银行的高息贷款置换成2％的低息贷款，并且获得1万元的免税额。假设当年你有5万收入的话，政府应该退税3115。而利息支出仅2000元。你在因为借钱而赚钱！
12。如果保险人去世时所借债务无法偿还，则由受益人的人寿保险所得偿还。实际上相当于生前用了死后的保险金（而且是免税的）。

以上数据只是对该险种的粗略描述，其中还有很多细节以及约束条件和风险。发在这里只是想说明，在加拿大这个高度成熟的社会里还有很多我们所不了解的金融工具可以为我们所用。

[老杨]

你生前拿出6万，死后18 - 12 = 6万，哪里来的保险金？

你这6万不仅拿不到利息，还要倒贴2%的利息，才能获得那个所谓的免税额。

[潜水艇]

作者: 老杨

你生前拿出6万，死后18 - 12 = 6万，哪里来的保险金？

你这6万不仅拿不到利息，还要倒贴2%的利息，才能获得那个所谓的免税额。

1.每年保费从投资收益中扣除。
2.不必倒贴利息，即使今后40年没有任何增长，你的全部18万投资正好够交这40年保费。你的100万保单完全可以支付这12万贷款在40年中的2％利息。

[Tiger04]

作者: 潜水艇

4。此时投资帐户以18万为基数增长，负债的12万需要付投资利息。
5。基金年假定增长为8％
6。投资利息为10％，但其中8％会返还到投资帐户中。实际利息为2％
7。由于投资部分的增长（18万×8％＝14400）大于负债部分利息的支出（12万×2％＝2400），因此基金处于累积增长。

where did you learn your math?

如果在6中你认为负债的12万需要付投资实际利息为2％, 那末在7中投资的18万应改为6万,因为其余的12万的8%的基金年增长已经在6中被抵消了.

[潜水艇]

作者: Tiger04

where did you learn your math?

如果在6中你认为负债的12万需要付投资实际利息为2％, 那末在7中投资的18万应改为6万,因为其余的12万的8%的基金年增长已经在6中被抵消了.

我说过在这里只是简单描述，实际上完全的讲解需要2小时左右。可能我的表述不够清楚，那我再尽量试试：

期初贷款12万，加上自有资金6万，共投资18万。假设买了18万的股票，期末获利8％卖出，本利共计18×1.08＝19.44万元。
其中12万贷款按照合同付利息10％，计1.2万。同样按照合同，1.2万中的9600元被重新放回投资帐户，1.2万中的2400元作为实际的利息。
则本期的盈亏为：（18×1.08-12×10％＋12×8％）－18＝1.2万元
就是说，你用6万自有资金加上12万贷款获得了1.2万的纯利。
如果你另外还有其他收入的话，还可以享受支付利息给你带来的1.2万元免税额。

BTW，我的英文不好。回帖中的英文部分不是很明白。想来是问候语之类的，既然和讨论问题关系不是很大，我就不另外答复了。

[Tiger04]

作者: 潜水艇

其中12万贷款按照合同付利息10％，计1.2万。同样按照合同，1.2万中的9600元被重新放回投资帐户，1.2万中的2400元作为实际的利息。
则本期的盈亏为：（18×1.08-12×10％＋12×8％）－18＝1.2万元
就是说，你用6万自有资金加上12万贷款获得了1.2万的纯利。

什末叫"1.2万中的9600元被重新放回投资帐户"? 这9600是作为新的贷款还是做为回扣给你的?

[潜水艇]

作者: Tiger04

什末叫"1.2万中的9600元被重新放回投资帐户"? 这9600是作为新的贷款还是做为回扣给你的?

回扣

[安全第一]

作者: 潜水艇

1.每年保费从投资收益中扣除。
2.不必倒贴利息，即使今后40年没有任何增长，你的全部18万投资正好够交这40年保费。你的100万保单完全可以支付这12万贷款在40年中的2％利息。

如果投资失败，银行就会把房子拿去拍卖，投资人会宣布破产，对吗？